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  #11  
Old 08-20-2008, 04:58 PM
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A. hister A. hister is offline
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If Speer had just followed orders this manifestation of Unter Mensch would never have bore light. The T series also was just combination of hard German Techno ability............Moskau or Stalingrad mein gott which one would you attack first? But oh no those gypey shagging turks at OKW went for the Caucasus ..........Nothing new I suppose
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  #12  
Old 08-21-2008, 04:34 PM
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Originally Posted by A. hister View Post
If Speer had just followed orders this manifestation of Unter Mensch would never have bore light. The T series also was just combination of hard German Techno ability............Moskau or Stalingrad mein gott which one would you attack first? But oh no those gypey shagging turks at OKW went for the Caucasus ..........Nothing new I suppose
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  #13  
Old 08-22-2008, 04:35 AM
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We got our hands on some T-80s in the early 90s..we noted all of the weak points..we give one to our mates across the pond aswell so they could give it the once over...tests were carried out both here and in the states...the findings were intresting...cut a long story short...its a tin can with a 125mm gun on it..would be slaughtered by Abrams and the first Challenger
Its bring your Russian daughter to the slaughter

Torps his going to hit the roof i know

Last edited by jrj1000; 08-22-2008 at 05:25 AM..
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  #14  
Old 08-22-2008, 09:57 AM
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heh, well the abrams has weakpoints too. a well placed round under the gunshield, and the spalling will turn the crew into kebab.

the T-80U is old news though. thats what the russians started production of in 1985.
around the same time the americans were fielding the M1 with 105mm gun,
and the non-DU M1A1 had just started production(the M1A1(HA) with DU inserts started fielding in 1988)
both of which are plenty penetrable by the russian 3BM42, or 3BM-32 rounds.
as for weakspots, the 120mm M256 gun has a dispersion of about 1.5m at 2000m.
thats about half the width of the T-80U turret.
also, the american "silver bullet" came out in 1988.
back in 1985, you'd have to shoot T-80Us with the M829, which is not an easy task. especially when those T-80Us are engaging you at 5km with guided missiles.

those tests on the T-80U was probably done with the now-standard M829A2 round.
i doubt it will have the same effectiveness against the T-84 or the T-90 Vladimir though.

oh, and btw, the russians are going to display a new tank in 2010. might be the T-95.

Last edited by dejawolf; 08-22-2008 at 10:03 AM..
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  #15  
Old 08-22-2008, 03:16 PM
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T-84 is a very nice tank, and the true successor to the T-64, with its 6TD-2 diesel engine.
(the T-80U is more of a bastard child, with its turbine engine)
the latest T-84 (oplot) has nozh ERA, which pretty much makes it immune against APFSDS until the nozh bricks are expended.
it also has a more complete coverage of the front turret than the T-90, and smaller elements, and it has a welded turret.
the T-90 doesn't have as complete coverage.
both tanks has a weakened zone around the GPS, which means they can potentially knock eachother out with a lucky hit to the GPS. but the T-90 has additional weakened zones to the left and right of the gun. the T-84 also has the weakened zones around the gun, but they're covered in nozh ERA.
so basically the T-84 is capable of withstanding some of the top APFSDS rounds that the west fields today, while the T-90 is capable of withstanding most western mid-range rounds (its immune against its own rounds, except in the weakened zones)
both tanks has mediocre side protection, which protects against autocannon rounds of calibres up to russian 30mm, while the front section has some ERA protection.

for mobility, the T-84 wins out again. it has a marginal advantage in power-to weight ratio,
but a major advantage is its gearbox. unlike the T-90, the T-84 has a decent reverse speed,
so it can do some decent defensive manouvers, while the T-90 is a bit crippled in that area.
so bottom line, the oplot is a superior design, but with a good crew, the T-90 will be able to take it out. if they ever duked it out, it would be a close fight, more dependant on crew skills than technology gap.
nice. you remind me of me. which is a unique situation for sure.

have you ever seen 2A46M lined with proper sights and proper ammonition?
(proper as Tungsten or DU?)
when you say "immune against its own rounds" you might mean anything from 50's
to 80's.. in penetration power..

you seem to beleve that the modern Ts can handle the Rheinmetall shot.
I wouldn't bet on it at all.
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  #16  
Old 08-22-2008, 03:39 PM
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what comes to the "weakened zones" M1A2 SEP and Leo A5 have plenty, and well documented flaws in the armor.
thease things don't stop them from frying T-80 class tanks from 8 kilometers with L55.
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  #17  
Old 08-22-2008, 04:45 PM
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Top three tanks all things considered....
German(Leo)
United Sates(Abrams)
UK(C2)
I dont know the facts about T-90....but i know machine on machine..forget numbers...our tank would be a good match for most..that is fact...
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  #18  
Old 08-22-2008, 05:41 PM
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Originally Posted by jrj1000 View Post
Top three tanks all things considered....
German(Leo)
United Sates(Abrams)
UK(C2)
I dont know the facts about T-90....but i know machine on machine..forget numbers...our tank would be a good match for most..that is fact...
well thats the over-all measurement atleast. the tanks whithin the top 5 are able to destroy each others when sighted and armed accordingly.

in my books the T-90 would be the 6th. today.
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  #19  
Old 08-23-2008, 06:23 AM
dejawolf dejawolf is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by torspo[fin] View Post
what comes to the "weakened zones" M1A2 SEP and Leo A5 have plenty, and well documented flaws in the armor.
thease things don't stop them from frying T-80 class tanks from 8 kilometers with L55.
the M1A2 SEP and leo 2A5 doesn't have an L55 gun, only the L44. the L55 can be easily recognized by a division in the middle of the forward portion thermal shroud of the gun, in front of the bore evacuator. and neither of these tanks has ever gone against T-80U class opponents,
only the leopard 2A6, leopardo 2E, and leopard 2 HEL has the l55 gun.
there's some problems with the L55, like manouver (swinging that long gun in forests, and enclosed areas) and also the gun buckles and moves about a lot when the tank is moving,
which actually reduces accuracy vs the L44 while on the move.
the russians has had this problem for a while with their L51 guns...
unless you're talking about the T-80B, which is still a step above the iraqi's T-72M and T-72M1.
also, neither tank has ever withstood a modern russian round.
the iraqis were firing 3BM-15, and training ammunition at the abrams tanks.
the 3BM-15 has half the penetration power of contemporary russian rounds.
the iraqi rounds were so poor, you couldn't even penetrate the abrams' side turret armour!
and the frontal chin armour of the T-72M is 1/3 of the armour of a T-72B.
not to mention that the T-72M1 and T-72M was outnumbered 3/1, during the first iraq war.

and whats with your fetish for matching bleeding edge contemporary western tanks with russian equipment from 1985?
M1A2 SEP? leopard 2A5? vs T-80U?
why not match space aliens with cavemen and see how that fight turns out.
the closest match the russians has to that, is the T-90A vladimir with 3BM-42M.
but personally i think the ukrainian T-84 would fare better, since it doesn't have that weakspot on the front of the turret, although K5 is pretty effective against APFSDS.
basically, K5 is 2 15mm plates spaced apart by an explosive liner, and when the ERA brick detonates, the explosion is vented downwards out of a small blowoff panel (works on a similar principle to the abrams ammunition venting turret bustle)
leaving the brick itself intact, more or less.
the empty ERA bricks serves to break up the APFSDS, or bending it, which can have a significant effect on its penetrating power.
basically, it all comes down to the L/D ratio. the longer and thinner you can make the penetrator, the more armour you can go through. if the penetrator is bent 2-3 degrees, however, you basically halve the penetrating power.
what the ukrainian ERA does is something worse, it breaks the penetrator in half, AND bends the penetrator,
a K-5 brick should be able to reduce the penetrating power of a long rod penetrator by at least 25%.

note: i don't discount that the area around the gun is extremely weak on russian tanks, it can be easily penetrated by even the M829. especially the coax port is extremely weak.
the side-ish armour and rear turret armour is also extraordinarily weak on the russian tanks,
and is vulnerable to even 25mm bushmaster rounds.
russian tanks also has the weakness that their reverse gear is very slow, so fighting from battle positions is very hard.
but still, they have good front hull armour, and the chin armour is thick, and very effective.
anyways, if you want a match, its leopard 2A4 with DM-23, and m1A1 with M829, against T-80U.
those are the correct tanks to measure the T-80U with, not the M1A2 SEP and leopard 2A5 arian uberpanzer. those tanks you measure up with the T-90A or T-84 oplot.

Last edited by dejawolf; 08-23-2008 at 09:21 AM..
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  #20  
Old 08-23-2008, 06:29 AM
dejawolf dejawolf is offline
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another thing to note about russian tanks is that they are primarily intended for anti-infantry duties. traditionally, russian tanks has a 2/3 HE loadout, 1/6 HEAT, and 1/6 APFSDS.
most of the anti-tank duties were held by the russian helicopters, and also, heavy usage of artillery.
russian tactics are basically heavy shelling of enemy defensive positions, before attack helicopters fly in, and finally an assault by cheaply built tanks en masse.
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