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  #1  
Old 12-08-2006, 07:51 PM
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Default Sensible chap..............

By Philip Martin

12/08/06 "Lew Rockwell" --- I'm sick and tired of this patriotic, nationalistic and fascist crap. I stood through a memorial service today for a young Marine that was killed in Iraq back in April. During this memorial a number of people spoke about the guy and about his sacrifice for the country. How do you justify 'sacrificing' your life for a war which is not only illegal, but is being prosecuted to the extent where the only thing keeping us there is one man's power, and his ego. A recent Marine Corps intelligence report that was leaked said that the war in the al-Anbar province is unwinnable. It said that there was nothing we could do to win the hearts and minds, or the military operations in that area. So I wonder, why are we still there? Democracy is not forced upon people at gunpoint. It's the result of forward thinking individuals who take the initiative and risks to give their fellow countrymen a better way of life.

When I joined I took an oath. In that oath I swore to protect the Constitution of the United States. I didn't swear to build democracies in countries on the other side of the world under the guise of "national security." I didn't join the military to be part of an Orwellian ("1984") war machine that is in an obligatory war against whoever the state deems the enemy to be so that the populace can be controlled and riled up in a pro-nationalistic frenzy to support any new and oppressive law that will be the key to destroying the enemy. Example given – the Patriot Act. So aptly named, and totally against all that the constitution stands for. President Bush used the reactionary nature of our society to bring our country together and to infuse into the national psyche a need to give up their little-used rights in the hope to make our nation a little safer. The same scare tactics he used to win elections. He drones on and on about how America and the world would be a less safe place if we weren't killing Iraqis, and that we'd have to fight the terrorists at home if we weren't abroad. In our modern day emotive society this strategy (or strategery?) works, or had worked, up until last month's elections.

My point in this; to show that America was never nationalistic. If anything they were Statalistic (giving their allegiance to the state of their residence). This is shown in the fact that the founders created states with fully capable and independent governments and not provinces that were just a division of the federal government. These men believed that America was a place where imperialistic values would be non-existent. Where the people trying to make their lives better by working hard, thinking, inventing and using the free market would tie up so much of normal life that imperialistic colonization and the fighting of wars thousands of miles away for interests that are not our own would be avoided. They believed this expansion of power could be left to the European nations, the England, France and Spain of their time. However this recent, and current influx of nationalistic feeling has created an environment where giving up your rights, going to a foreign country to fight a people who did not ask for us to be there, nor did their leader do anything to warrant us being there, and dying would be considered honorable and heroic. I don't believe it anymore. I don't believe it's right for any American to go along with it anymore. Yes I know that we in the military are bound by the UCMJ and somehow don't fall under the Constitution (the very thing we're suppose to be defending) but sooner or later there is a decision that every American soldier, marine, airmen and seamen makes to allow themselves to be sent to a war that is against every fiber this country was founded on. I know that when April rolls around I will be thinking long and hard on that decision. Even though we in the military are just doing as we're told we still have the moral and ethical obligation to choose to do as we're told, or to say, "No, that isn't right." I believe that if more troopers like me and the professional military, the officers and commanders, start standing up and saying that they won't let themselves or their troops go to this illegal war people will start standing up and realizing what the heck is going on over there.

The sad fact of the matter is that we are not fighting terrorists in Iraq. We are fighting the Iraqi people who feel like a conquered and occupied people. Personally I have a hard time believing that if I was an Iraqi that I wouldn't be doing everything in my power to kill and maim as many Americans as possible. I know that the vast majority of Americans would not be happy with the Canadian government, or any other foreign government, liberating us from the clutches of George W. Bush, even though a large number of us would like that, and forcing us to accept their system of government. Would not millions of Americans rise up and fight back? Would you not rise up to protect and defend your house and your neighborhood if someone invaded your country? But we send thousands of troops to a foreign country to do just that. How is it moral to fight a people who are just trying to defend their homes and families? I think next time I go to Iraq perhaps I should wear a bright red coat and carry a Brown Bess instead of my digitalized utilities and M16.

Notice I never once used the word homeland in any of this. I have a secondary point I want to bring up now. Never once was the term homeland ever used to describe the country of America until Mr. Bush began the department of homeland security after the 9/11 attacks. Taking a 20th century history class will teach us that the most notable countries in the last century that referred to their country in this way were Nazi Germany and Soviet Russia. Hitler used the term fatherland to drum up support, nationalistic support, for his growing war machine. He used the nationalism he created in the minds of the Germans to justify the sacrifice of their livelihood to build the war machine to get back their power from the oppressive restrictions the English and French had put on them at Versailles. This is the same feeling that has been virulently infecting the American psyche in the last hundred years. This is the same feeling that consoles a mother after her son is killed in an attempt to prosecute an aggressor's war 10,000 miles away. It's also known as Patriotism these days, but I say, "No more." No more nationalistic inanity, no more passing it off as patriotism. Patriotism is learning, and educating oneself to understand what their country really stands for.

I heard a lot during the memorial service about how the dead Marine did so much good for others and how his helping others was like a little microcosm of America helping because we have the power to do so. Well if we have the power to help people why aren't we helping in Darfur where hundreds of thousands of people have died in the last 10 years. Saddam was convicted and sentenced to death for killing 143 Shiites who conspired to assassinate him. (I know all you "patriotic" Americans would be calling for the heads of anyone who conspired to assassinate supreme leader Bush). And yet we spend upwards of 1 trillion dollars and nearing 3,000 lives to help these Iraqis when they don't even want us there. Not to mention we don't have the legal justification to be there. I guess we should wait around for the omnipotent W Bush to decide who we should use our superpowerdom to help next. It's about time to throw him and the rest of the fascists out. Moreover it's about time to start educating Americans about their past and history, and letting them know that imperialistic leaders are not what the founders of this great country wanted.

Philip Martin <grimmythedog@netscape.net> has been a Marine for 2 years. He is in the infantry (a "grunt"), and spent 7 months in the al-Anbar province of Iraq. He went on more than 180 combat patrols in and outside of the city of Fallujah, where he was hit with 2 IEDs (luckily never injured) and was involved in a number of firefights. He is currently stationed in Twentynine Palms, CA, and due to return to Iraq for a second deployment in April 2007. He is 21-years-old.
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Nearly 750,000 Iraqis have died since 2003 who might still be alive but for the US-led invasion. That is a cause for shame, not pride.
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  #2  
Old 12-08-2006, 08:48 PM
onep0int onep0int is offline
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Sounds like a cry baby to me. When you swear in you also say right after the defend the Constitution part "and I will obey the orders of those appointed over me" which at least he is doing so and not running off to Canada which as far as I am concerned the only thing preventing him is that going AWOL at a time of war can be punishable by death. You can be against the war, you can not like Bush, you can think everything is wrong about this is wrong, that is fine you are free to do however this statement "I'm sick and tired of this patriotic, nationalistic and fascist crap." to suggest patriotism is within the same bounds as facism makes me sick in more ways than I care to express.


As for his comment on Darfur, their own government isn't accepting the help being offered. But no one makes mention of the good the U.S. is doing in the Horn of Africa. It seems he is falling victim to the media's new "concerns" over Darfur. Darfur is not the only place in Africa in need of intense help (and for that matter in the world) yet it's the only one he mentions.


Another interesting point he tries to make is about our founding fathers not wanting to spread influence. If this was the case Thomas Jefferson would not have supported the French Revolution as he did. Furthermore it's beyond my understanding that he would make a statement that our founding fathers would not go and fight wars thousands of miles away. As a Marine he should know very well about our war with Tripoli which was ordered by Thomas Jefferson. With much in common with the War on Terror today, the Marines were sent there to fight pirates who were terrorizing merchant ships in the area. Not to mention the expansion attitude taken by our founding fathers in taking the land away from the Indians (an act put in motion as soon as the Revolutionary War was over). It's no wonder we didn't have to go around the world to colonize we had a virtual continent to take over in our backyard.

He also sounds disgruntled to be in one of the most dangerous areas in Iraq and that is what is probably fueling this. Again there are 18 provinces in Iraq, the violence is confined to 4 of them, and the Iraqi Kurdistan is the most peaceful area in Iraq, he should ask them if they would not like us to stay there until the Iraqi Security Forces are up to speed.
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  #3  
Old 12-09-2006, 07:32 AM
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The decision of men to enlist and serve their country should not be discounted by bad decisions and/or bad leaders.. at worst the soldier should be respected for his selflessness, at best, cheered for his heroism..
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  #4  
Old 12-11-2006, 12:55 PM
Jesus loves me more Jesus loves me more is offline
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Patriotism is the essence of facism, how can you have facism without the unifying theme of patriotism? The Nazis put dissenters to death during WW2 for the crime of 'not supporting the troops' and giving aid and comfort to the enemy by criticizing the war. I am not saying that we are Nazis - just pointing some surprising similarities. 'Supporting the troops' is meaningless anyway - who doesn't support their own troops? Nobody! It is just a smear tactic from those that would prefer not to have to discuss the subject.
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Old 12-11-2006, 01:33 PM
onep0int onep0int is offline
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Patriotism is the essence of facism,

Facism may include a sense of patriotism as will any government. You don't think the Chinese have patriots? Or the Brazilians? Or Italians? ect... Patriotism is not the essence of Facism. The essence of Facism is a hunger for power.

how can you have facism without the unifying theme of patriotism?

How can you have any government without patriotism? George Washington, Thomas Jefferson, John Adams, ect... weren't patriots? Andrew Jackson wasn't a patriot? Hell to the extreme left Lenin wasn't a patriot?

The Nazis put dissenters to death during WW2 for the crime of 'not supporting the troops' and giving aid and comfort to the enemy by criticizing the war.

Along with millions of others. The Nazi's were simply monsters.

I am not saying that we are Nazis - just pointing some surprising similarities.

Well trained and equipped military. Patriotism, and espirt de corps. Yup there are some similarities.

'Supporting the troops' is meaningless anyway -

There you have gone a f-cked up as far as I am concerned. It is far from meaningless.

who doesn't support their own troops? Nobody!

Ever been to forsakethetroops.com ?

It is just a smear tactic from those that would prefer not to have to discuss the subject


I say Support the Troops and I am more than willing to discuss the subject. Infact, shall we?
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  #6  
Old 12-11-2006, 02:12 PM
Jesus loves me more Jesus loves me more is offline
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excuse me onepoint - the comment you are responding to should have quoted you when you said "to suggest patriotism is within the same bounds as facism makes me sick in more ways than I care to express." and I understood you to be saying that you objected to any connection between facism and patriotism - my comments were intended to address that point : patriotism is a lever that has been used by many (most?) governments to get their citizens to do rotten things that they would not otherwise have done - but I limited my comments to the facists given your comment and the Nazis provided a striking example of that principle in action.

I think you misinterpreted my 'Supporting the troops' is meaningless anyway' point (probably because the comment was made without proper context, again - excuse me), so please allow me to expand:

I object to being accused of not 'supporting the troops' when I criticize the war in Iraq (or any other war for that matter). Criticism of the war is valid - and in the present circumstances - very necessary. People who refuse to engage in any kind of discussion and instead hurl baseless slurs like 'you don't support our troops' are trying to silence that discussion because they don't like where it goes. Well if I think the war in Iraq is wrong, even criminal, then I MUST criticize it - because I can't ask our boys to die for something like that. To me that is the best way of supporting our troops. When I hear squawks of 'you don't support our troops' in response to a well formulated good faith argument I consider those comments meaningless and only intended to piss me off (which they do) or put me on the defensive (which, unfortunately, they also do). I have never personally met anyone that didn't respect and support our troops so when I see the bumper stickers, etc I think of course we all support the troops, it is nice to say and nice to see, but our soldiers aren't dying because of a lack of domestic support - they are dying because our foreign policy has failed. If we want to stop them from dying we need to engage in a serious discussion about our situation and avoid meaningless name calling.
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Old 12-11-2006, 02:24 PM
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kurusch kurusch is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jesus loves me more View Post
excuse me onepoint - the comment you are responding to should have quoted you when you said "to suggest patriotism is within the same bounds as facism makes me sick in more ways than I care to express." and I understood you to be saying that you objected to any connection between facism and patriotism - my comments were intended to address that point : patriotism is a lever that has been used by many (most?) governments to get their citizens to do rotten things that they would not otherwise have done - but I limited my comments to the facists given your comment and the Nazis provided a striking example of that principle in action.

I think you misinterpreted my 'Supporting the troops' is meaningless anyway' point (probably because the comment was made without proper context, again - excuse me), so please allow me to expand:

I object to being accused of not 'supporting the troops' when I criticize the war in Iraq (or any other war for that matter). Criticism of the war is valid - and in the present circumstances - very necessary. People who refuse to engage in any kind of discussion and instead hurl baseless slurs like 'you don't support our troops' are trying to silence that discussion because they don't like where it goes. Well if I think the war in Iraq is wrong, even criminal, then I MUST criticize it - because I can't ask our boys to die for something like that. To me that is the best way of supporting our troops. When I hear squawks of 'you don't support our troops' in response to a well formulated good faith argument I consider those comments meaningless and only intended to piss me off (which they do) or put me on the defensive (which, unfortunately, they also do). I have never personally met anyone that didn't respect and support our troops so when I see the bumper stickers, etc I think of course we all support the troops, it is nice to say and nice to see, but our soldiers aren't dying because of a lack of domestic support - they are dying because our foreign policy has failed. If we want to stop them from dying we need to engage in a serious discussion about our situation and avoid meaningless name calling.
Well said.
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Nearly 750,000 Iraqis have died since 2003 who might still be alive but for the US-led invasion. That is a cause for shame, not pride.
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Old 12-11-2006, 02:59 PM
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Exo1 Exo1 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jesus loves me more View Post
Patriotism is the essence of facism, how can you have facism without the unifying theme of patriotism? The Nazis put dissenters to death during WW2 for the crime of 'not supporting the troops' and giving aid and comfort to the enemy by criticizing the war. I am not saying that we are Nazis - just pointing some surprising similarities. 'Supporting the troops' is meaningless anyway - who doesn't support their own troops? Nobody! It is just a smear tactic from those that would prefer not to have to discuss the subject.

Ehh... I am not sure how you managed to tie in your own mind Patriotism back to Facism??... Anyway, thats not imporant... and it couldnt be further from the truth... whats important is how both concepts are preceived..... Patriotism is a love of ones country for what it is politically, culturally and morally. Facism is an extreme Right wing political ideology that is practiced over time by some countries to mostly disasterous ends....

Patriotism is experienced in its MANY forms by ALL countries ALL over the world... from the Protests in Iran over the west, to Pakistan over the west, to China where they strive to represent their nation in the Olympics, to the US where they enlist to serve their country, etc, etc, etc.... Patriotism is not Facism, and vice versa....

Supporting your troops is not meaningless, you would only say that if you had never lived outside of the US, and never served in the forces to understand what support means.... try living for the rest of your life protecting secrets cos its your duty to do, and never complaining about being out of the Army but holding its secrets intact with pride.... when you understand that, then you will truely understand patriotism... I dont expect a mature response from you, so dont bother writing back on the topic... I rest my case...
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Old 12-11-2006, 04:43 PM
onep0int onep0int is offline
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excuse me onepoint - the comment you are responding to should have quoted you when you said "to suggest patriotism is within the same bounds as facism makes me sick in more ways than I care to express." and I understood you to be saying that you objected to any connection between facism and patriotism -

No I was saying that to say patriotism is within the same measure as Facism is sickening. That is how I understood the author of the article to address it.

my comments were intended to address that point : patriotism is a lever that has been used by many (most?) governments to get their citizens to do rotten things that they would not otherwise have done - but I limited my comments to the facists given your comment and the Nazis provided a striking example of that principle in action.

I think Exo1 defined patriotism in his reply quite well. I would also like some examples of this (I know it has happened) but besides the Nazi's, and since I know you would use it exclude the current wars in Iraq and Afgan.


I think you misinterpreted my 'Supporting the troops' is meaningless anyway' point (probably because the comment was made without proper context, again - excuse me), so please allow me to expand:

I certainly missed it. I understood it as it sounded.

I object to being accused of not 'supporting the troops' when I criticize the war in Iraq (or any other war for that matter). Criticism of the war is valid - and in the present circumstances - very necessary.

You live in America (true?) so you are free to have your own opinion. You are also free to voice that opinion and critize the war.

People who refuse to engage in any kind of discussion and instead hurl baseless slurs like 'you don't support our troops' are trying to silence that discussion because they don't like where it goes.

I agree, there are those who do not take the time to research counterpoints to those made by critics of the war and result to insults. I however am not one those.

Well if I think the war in Iraq is wrong, even criminal, then I MUST criticize it - because I can't ask our boys to die for something like that. To me that is the best way of supporting our troops. When I hear squawks of 'you don't support our troops' in response to a well formulated good faith argument I consider those comments meaningless and only intended to piss me off (which they do) or put me on the defensive (which, unfortunately, they also do).

Understood, and I can see why it would piss you off. Again those are mostly people you have not educated themselves with the current situation, past and present. I will also say that it goes both ways, there are those who go as far as to make up stories and/or hurl insults to try and state their cause or what ever it is they are after. I would say those are the Michael Moores and Cindy Sheehans.

I have never personally met anyone that didn't respect and support our troops so when I see the bumper stickers, etc I think of course we all support the troops, it is nice to say and nice to see,

Try visiting forsakethetroops.com then and get your blood riled up.

but our soldiers aren't dying because of a lack of domestic support -

Actually a lack of domestic support can bring morale levels lower which can result in a half *** job being and that can result to death.

they are dying because our foreign policy has failed.

I'm assuming you mean our policy in Iraq. I wouldn't go as far as saying it has failed. But it surely is failing. I myself am a critic of many of the mistakes done during this war. There was much that could have been done to prevent much of what has happened. And there is still much that can be done to turn it around.

If we want to stop them from dying we need to engage in a serious discussion about our situation and avoid meaningless name calling

I thought that is what the Iraq Study Group was for?
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  #10  
Old 12-11-2006, 05:28 PM
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torspo[fin] torspo[fin] is offline
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would it be facism to preserve ones culture?

we Finns are.. well i dont know exactly. but i'd say quite strongly
"Patriotic".. even in a sence which exeeds any "American"
idea of freedom.. (which we do embrace some what since its close to our
own interpretation of it.)

as i know.. we have been here from the stone-age.
we have had to fight between germanic and the slavic
cultures. we have lost a lot on the way.
during the dawn of world war 2.. we really tough
that we were fighting for our cultures sole survival on this globe.
thus we slaughtered like 128.800 soviets.(whole invading force was 1 million men in winterwar)
you can call it what you like.
still that was not really the "patriotism" in action all alone.
its something deeper.. its many parts nationalism.
which was quite fresh at the times.
and still we were not found of this "National socialism" which
hitler was marketing. we were the first "modern democracy".
less of it in the war times.. but neverthanless.

i offer this input as an "steppingstone" for the conversation in hand.

Last edited by torspo[fin]; 12-11-2006 at 05:41 PM..
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