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  #21  
Old 01-07-2006, 10:19 PM
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kurusch kurusch is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by onep0int
Yes, we were to blame for it? Did it benefit us at the time they sold? Yes it did. Would a democratic NK or China be to our benefit? Yes. China is (supposedly, - I personally don't trust them-) on it's way. NK is a very delicate situation, considering what they can do with nukes it's best to work with it's neighbors, as it effects their neighbors greatly. A democratic Iraq would have been wonderful then. You also have to think we had a problem with Iran at the time considering what they did back then. A more powerful Iraq who was at war with Iran was to our benefit. What happened after wasn't something we expected.
'What happened after wasn't something we expected.'
I beg to differ. If you take a few minutes to read what we anti Iraq war protesters were saying before the war, you'll see thousands of us warned against; a Vietnam situation, the destabilisation of the area, and the eventual rise of a fundamentalist Muslim Iraq.

' You also have to think we had a problem with Iran at the time considering what they did back then.'
And what's changed?

' A democratic Iraq would have been wonderful then.'
Of course, but it didn't stop America from fully supporting the Butcher of Baghdad and his mass slaughter, something ant Iraq war people objected to at the time. See Geoge Galloway and John Pilger, those 'evil' left wingers who protested on the streets and wrote volumes.
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Nearly 750,000 Iraqis have died since 2003 who might still be alive but for the US-led invasion. That is a cause for shame, not pride.
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  #22  
Old 01-07-2006, 10:35 PM
onep0int onep0int is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kurusch
'What happened after wasn't something we expected.'
I beg to differ. If you take a few minutes to read what we anti Iraq war protesters were saying before the war, you'll see thousands of us warned against; a Vietnam situation, the destabilisation of the area, and the eventual rise of a fundamentalist Muslim Iraq.

' You also have to think we had a problem with Iran at the time considering what they did back then.'
And what's changed?

' A democratic Iraq would have been wonderful then.'
Of course, but it didn't stop America from fully supporting the Butcher of Baghdad and his mass slaughter, something ant Iraq war people objected to at the time. See Geoge Galloway and John Pilger, those 'evil' left wingers who protested on the streets and wrote volumes.

1. I wasn't talking about what happened after the invasion of Iraq I was talking about what happened after the U.S. support of Iraq years ago.

2. Nothing has changed. I think it should. I think Iran is in need of a regime change. However I'm not currently in a position to make it happen.

3. Yes, but who was a worse enemey at the time Iraq or Iran?
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  #23  
Old 01-07-2006, 11:09 PM
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kurusch kurusch is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by onep0int

. I think Iran is in need of a regime change.

Many people think America is in need of a regime change, the UK, NK, China, Pakistan, Saudi, Kuwait. What authority has any nation other than express its preference? Some of us are fortunate to have been born in countries that promote the democratic habit of ejecting governments we dislike, some of us don't. If you really want any legitimacy for force, you have only the UN, a body you have said you despise.
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Nearly 750,000 Iraqis have died since 2003 who might still be alive but for the US-led invasion. That is a cause for shame, not pride.
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  #24  
Old 01-08-2006, 10:05 AM
onep0int onep0int is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kurusch
Many people think America is in need of a regime change, the UK, NK, China, Pakistan, Saudi, Kuwait. What authority has any nation other than express its preference? Some of us are fortunate to have been born in countries that promote the democratic habit of ejecting governments we dislike, some of us don't. If you really want any legitimacy for force, you have only the UN, a body you have said you despise.

I don't so much despise the UN as I think it's failed and doesn't work. It is a pretty useless orginization as of right now. Considering the oil for food scandal as well, it shows how the UN's motives do not differ from those that are thrown at the U.S./U.K. (falsely) by you anti-war guys.
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  #25  
Old 01-08-2006, 11:18 AM
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Flipflopping.

Trained and supported Osama to fight the Soviets. Followed by abandonment. Now we need to kill each other. We trained him to find victory against overwhelming odds. Regrettable?

Supported Saddam vs Iran in a war that I'm suspect didn't live up to American humanitarian standards...but that was O.K. at the time..?? for some reason. Saddam decides to invade another neighbourhood (Kuwait) after things "cool" down with Iran, but invading that country isn't very appealing to the west like Iran was so it's time to invade Iraq. We helped build the war machine, then went to break it, failed to oust the leader of the enemy nation. Perhaps the finest means available to make an international enemy head of state. Then underthumbed them for years (rat in a corner) before deciding to finish the job based on irrelevancy. If you succeed the Iraqi Democratic Gov't will be about as popular in the middle east as Isreali leadership. You'll be pouring cash and lives into the defence of Iraq untill it dries up....then it will likely be abandoned. Although Isreal hasn't so maybe, just maybe not.

Taliban Leaders were invited to the U.S. as an official delegation. We knew how they treated their people but still held out the hand of friendship. We knew they housed some of the finest threats to the free world. Why did we try to be their friends? We'll anyway, the friendship didn't work out so they got invaded too.

WWII, China is an ally, Japan the enemy. Now the opposite. Is it because Japan has been a good little boy since getting Nuked? Where China hasn't been "obediant". I'm not sure. Another flipflop non the less though.

Soviets. Most certainly a WWII ally. Why.... why, why, why would there have been rambling in the west about trucking right through Germany and keep on going to Moscow. And a tremendously powerful potential long term alliance came crashing down. Now that Gorbachev and Yeltzin have moved along were back in ****ville. Keep telling a proud nation how to act and it is going to stay in ****ville.

It's discouraging that wether we have a truly good intent or not, we have been so tarnished that we can't be trusted. The west moves forward through opportunism and trickery. That's why our minority culture is the most powerful one on the planet. That being pretty much Germany and West.

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  #26  
Old 01-08-2006, 12:58 PM
onep0int onep0int is offline
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Trained and supported Osama to fight the Soviets. Followed by abandonment. Now we need to kill each other. We trained him to find victory against overwhelming odds. Regrettable?


Yup, it sucks don't it? And then Osama used the excuse that we crossed into holy ground. But it was ok when we were helping him wasn't it?

Supported Saddam vs Iran in a war that I'm suspect didn't live up to American humanitarian standards...but that was O.K. at the time..?? for some reason. Saddam decides to invade another neighbourhood (Kuwait) after things "cool" down with Iran, but invading that country isn't very appealing to the west like Iran was so it's time to invade Iraq. We helped build the war machine, then went to break it, failed to oust the leader of the enemy nation. Perhaps the finest means available to make an international enemy head of state. Then underthumbed them for years (rat in a corner) before deciding to finish the job based on irrelevancy. If you succeed the Iraqi Democratic Gov't will be about as popular in the middle east as Isreali leadership. You'll be pouring cash and lives into the defence of Iraq untill it dries up....then it will likely be abandoned. Although Isreal hasn't so maybe, just maybe not.

Iran took U.S. hostages and toppled the Shah who was a U.S. ally at the time. I think it was in our best intrest to fund Saddam at the time. Things cooled down as you put it. Saddam in a finiancial ruin from the war decides to invade Kuwait and take over it's oil fields (I guess the high grade oil Iraq has isn't really enough). So we invaded. And I personally think a democratic Islamic nation will serve as an example to the others in the Middle East. Israel is disliked simply because of it's religion and how it conflicts with Islam.

Taliban Leaders were invited to the U.S. as an official delegation. We knew how they treated their people but still held out the hand of friendship. We knew they housed some of the finest threats to the free world. Why did we try to be their friends? We'll anyway, the friendship didn't work out so they got invaded too.

Not during Bush's presidency I can tell you that much. They got invaded for not giving up Osama after 9/11.

WWII, China is an ally, Japan the enemy. Now the opposite. Is it because Japan has been a good little boy since getting Nuked? Where China hasn't been "obediant". I'm not sure. Another flipflop non the less though.

Very bad example. China was not communist during WW2. The communist revolution took place in China in 1949. Through violence and much bloodshed they became what they are today.

Soviets. Most certainly a WWII ally. Why.... why, why, why would there have been rambling in the west about trucking right through Germany and keep on going to Moscow. And a tremendously powerful potential long term alliance came crashing down. Now that Gorbachev and Yeltzin have moved along were back in ****ville. Keep telling a proud nation how to act and it is going to stay in ****ville.

Again after WW2, Russia went on a campaign of funding communist revolutions and taking over other nations through violence. The eventual break in the American and Russian alliance was even spoken of by Hitler. The Americans were warned that the Russians could not be trusted and eventually would become our enemey as well. Russia was until recently well on it's way to becoming a democratic nation. Talk to Russia's former fianance minister about staying in ****ville.
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  #27  
Old 01-08-2006, 02:48 PM
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royal marine royal marine is offline
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im FOR the war in iraq aswell
im FOR msot of the wars which have been on recently except vietnam and korea and thats not because i hate violence its because we should not start get involved with the communists because theyre simply too good of an organisation for us
im quite supernatural about war aswell, i think we cant stop declaring wars which are calling to be declared becuase something bad would happen a few years later. We just need to go along with what the east is going to hit us with and then retaliate only then will things get better
i had one ex-SAS guy come down to me and some others last friday, he was taking the piss out of us because we and our generation are going to be fighting a MASSIVE VIOLENT war against the middle east soon apparently.
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  #28  
Old 01-08-2006, 03:10 PM
onep0int onep0int is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by royal marine
im FOR the war in iraq aswell
im FOR msot of the wars which have been on recently except vietnam and korea and thats not because i hate violence its because we should not start get involved with the communists because theyre simply too good of an organisation for us
im quite supernatural about war aswell, i think we cant stop declaring wars which are calling to be declared becuase something bad would happen a few years later. We just need to go along with what the east is going to hit us with and then retaliate only then will things get better
i had one ex-SAS guy come down to me and some others last friday, he was taking the piss out of us because we and our generation are going to be fighting a MASSIVE VIOLENT war against the middle east soon apparently.
So communism is better than us (us being the free and democratic world)?!?!?!? Please do explain. Or are you just a commie at heart?
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  #29  
Old 01-10-2006, 02:13 AM
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kurusch kurusch is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by onep0int

Trained and supported Osama to fight the Soviets. Followed by abandonment. Now we need to kill each other. We trained him to find victory against overwhelming odds. Regrettable?


Yup, it sucks don't it? And then Osama used the excuse that we crossed into holy ground. But it was ok when we were helping him wasn't it?

Supported Saddam vs Iran in a war that I'm suspect didn't live up to American humanitarian standards...but that was O.K. at the time..?? for some reason. Saddam decides to invade another neighbourhood (Kuwait) after things "cool" down with Iran, but invading that country isn't very appealing to the west like Iran was so it's time to invade Iraq. We helped build the war machine, then went to break it, failed to oust the leader of the enemy nation. Perhaps the finest means available to make an international enemy head of state. Then underthumbed them for years (rat in a corner) before deciding to finish the job based on irrelevancy. If you succeed the Iraqi Democratic Gov't will be about as popular in the middle east as Isreali leadership. You'll be pouring cash and lives into the defence of Iraq untill it dries up....then it will likely be abandoned. Although Isreal hasn't so maybe, just maybe not.

Iran took U.S. hostages and toppled the Shah who was a U.S. ally at the time. I think it was in our best intrest to fund Saddam at the time. Things cooled down as you put it. Saddam in a finiancial ruin from the war decides to invade Kuwait and take over it's oil fields (I guess the high grade oil Iraq has isn't really enough). So we invaded. And I personally think a democratic Islamic nation will serve as an example to the others in the Middle East. Israel is disliked simply because of it's religion and how it conflicts with Islam.

Taliban Leaders were invited to the U.S. as an official delegation. We knew how they treated their people but still held out the hand of friendship. We knew they housed some of the finest threats to the free world. Why did we try to be their friends? We'll anyway, the friendship didn't work out so they got invaded too.

Not during Bush's presidency I can tell you that much. They got invaded for not giving up Osama after 9/11.

WWII, China is an ally, Japan the enemy. Now the opposite. Is it because Japan has been a good little boy since getting Nuked? Where China hasn't been "obediant". I'm not sure. Another flipflop non the less though.

Very bad example. China was not communist during WW2. The communist revolution took place in China in 1949. Through violence and much bloodshed they became what they are today.

Soviets. Most certainly a WWII ally. Why.... why, why, why would there have been rambling in the west about trucking right through Germany and keep on going to Moscow. And a tremendously powerful potential long term alliance came crashing down. Now that Gorbachev and Yeltzin have moved along were back in ****ville. Keep telling a proud nation how to act and it is going to stay in ****ville.

Again after WW2, Russia went on a campaign of funding communist revolutions and taking over other nations through violence. The eventual break in the American and Russian alliance was even spoken of by Hitler. The Americans were warned that the Russians could not be trusted and eventually would become our enemey as well. Russia was until recently well on it's way to becoming a democratic nation. Talk to Russia's former fianance minister about staying in ****ville.
'
Yup, it sucks don't it? And then Osama used the excuse that we crossed into holy ground. But it was ok when we were helping him wasn't it?
'
It was the USUK presence in Saudi and Kuwait that upset Al Queda. That happened after the Afghan war with the Soviets. And remeber Bin Laden was / is no friend of Saudi, Kuwait and pre-invasion Iraq.

' I think it was in our best intrest to fund Saddam at the time.'
Iran wasn't beaten, Sadaam continued to kill his people, how was that in Americas interests?

' Saddam in a finiancial ruin from the war decides to invade Kuwait and take over it's oil fields (I guess the high grade oil Iraq has isn't really enough). So we invaded'
You say you're studying foreign relations so how come you don't know that he invaded Kuwait only after believing he'd got the nod from Rumsfeld?

'And I personally think a democratic Islamic nation will serve as an example to the others in the Middle East. '
Well it's possible but that ain't gonna happen. A village idiot could tell you that, why doesn't a student of foreign relations?

'Again after WW2, Russia went on a campaign of funding communist revolutions and taking over other nations through violence.'
And the West did the same.
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'Never was so much owed by so many to so few.'
Sir Winston Churchill.

Nearly 750,000 Iraqis have died since 2003 who might still be alive but for the US-led invasion. That is a cause for shame, not pride.
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  #30  
Old 01-15-2006, 11:42 AM
onep0int onep0int is offline
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It was the USUK presence in Saudi and Kuwait that upset Al Queda. That happened after the Afghan war with the Soviets. And remeber Bin Laden was / is no friend of Saudi, Kuwait and pre-invasion Iraq.

Sorry I didn't over simplify it. We helped Osama, and then left (exactly the opposite of what we're doing in Iraq). Then he used that excuse, of stepping into holy ground to further his "Islamic revolution". I never said he was a friend of either of those countries hence his excuse.


Iran wasn't beaten, Sadaam continued to kill his people, how was that in Americas interests?

Are politicians supposed to be psychics now too? It was of interest at the time, no one could have predicted what would have happened.


You say you're studying foreign relations so how come you don't know that he invaded Kuwait only after believing he'd got the nod from Rumsfeld?

For starters I'm still finishing my AA in Criminal Justice. I'm taking a international relations class this semester, and I'm pursuing a BA in International Relations. And I belive who you are talking about is former U.S. Ambassador to Iraq April Glaspie. However if you know something I don't about Rumsfeld, please do tell I'm always looking to learn something new. And it was perceived as a nod by Saddam. It could be argued that she believed there was to be more diplomacy as Saddam had said there would be in his letter.


Well it's possible but that ain't gonna happen. A village idiot could tell you that, why doesn't a student of foreign relations?

Please do not insult yourself in that way village idiot is so harsh lol. Really, time will tell I'm optimistic about it. It will be a long and hard process, but I'm confident it will work.

And the West did the same.

We went on a counter-insurgency effort to fight the communist revolutions caused by the Soviets. Much different. I would have expected better from you.
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